From woods at robohack.ca Tue Jul 1 06:23:54 2025 From: woods at robohack.ca (Greg A. Woods) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 13:23:54 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sat, 28 Jun 2025 17:26:21 -0700, Tom Lyon wrote: Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? > > Anyone sitting on piles of old UNIX newsletters? I find they make for > fascinating reading. > I haven't found any online archives. Hmmm.... I've still got the troff sources for the UniForum Canada (nee /usr/group/cdn) newsletters ("README") I produced when I was the editor. These span July 1990 through February 1993. They were distributed to members in print form. There were some issues before my time, but I don't think I managed to even keep the printed copies of those. I suppose I could/should just wrap them in a tar and put it on my web server.... I'll have to sort out including the wrapper tmac file I used -- the primary macros were MM, but I adapted them for the newsletter with some additions and replacements. I though I had lost it, but it seems I did manage to keep everything, even including the SCCS files. -- Greg A. Woods Kelowna, BC +1 250 762-7675 RoboHack Planix, Inc. Avoncote Farms From arnold at skeeve.com Tue Jul 1 07:25:55 2025 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 15:25:55 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] xview and open motif files Message-ID: <202506302125.55ULPtCv148436@freefriends.org> Hi All. I found the following files recently: $ ls -l total 8748 -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 5661471 Oct 1 2007 openmotif-2.3.0.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 4888 Jan 18 1999 xvfc.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 3281277 Jan 18 1999 xview3.2.tar.gz They can be retrieved under https://www.skeeve.com/X11/. I have sent them to Warren, who currently has them in his hidden archive. I also have a copy of the OpenLook CDROM, but I notice it's available from GitHub: https://github.com/IanDarwin/OpenLookCDROM. Enjoy, Arnold From pugs78 at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 08:47:32 2025 From: pugs78 at gmail.com (Tom Lyon) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 15:47:32 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As promised, my scanned newsletters are here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1su6vVa5vXe5FpI-4WB5AQyex_jS_t2XI?usp=sharing Warren, please fetch them. On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 5:26 PM Tom Lyon wrote: > Anyone sitting on piles of old UNIX newsletters? I find they make for > fascinating reading. > I haven't found any online archives. > If you have a pile, I can scan them. > > I'm going to scan my 3 copies of commUNIXations, the /usr/group > newsletter, and 4 copies of "UNIQUE - Your independent UNIX and C Advisor" > - all from 1983/4. > > Warren can hopefully find a home for these. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuff at riddermarkfarm.ca Wed Jul 2 10:27:24 2025 From: stuff at riddermarkfarm.ca (Stuff Received) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 20:27:24 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] xview and open motif files In-Reply-To: <202506302125.55ULPtCv148436@freefriends.org> References: <202506302125.55ULPtCv148436@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <03813740-4884-edd3-32b9-ed40df49fbcd@riddermarkfarm.ca> On 2025-06-30 17:25, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > Hi All. > > I found the following files recently: > > $ ls -l > total 8748 > -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 5661471 Oct 1 2007 openmotif-2.3.0.tar.gz > -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 4888 Jan 18 1999 xvfc.tar.gz > -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 3281277 Jan 18 1999 xview3.2.tar.gz > > They can be retrieved under https://www.skeeve.com/X11/. "Forbidden You don't have permission to access this resource." S. > > I have sent them to Warren, who currently has them in his hidden > archive. > > I also have a copy of the OpenLook CDROM, but I notice it's available > from GitHub: https://github.com/IanDarwin/OpenLookCDROM. > > Enjoy, > > Arnold From amp1ron at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:33:56 2025 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (amp1ron at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 21:33:56 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] xview and open motif files In-Reply-To: <03813740-4884-edd3-32b9-ed40df49fbcd@riddermarkfarm.ca> References: <202506302125.55ULPtCv148436@freefriends.org> <03813740-4884-edd3-32b9-ed40df49fbcd@riddermarkfarm.ca> Message-ID: <008401dbeaf1$748542f0$5d8fc8d0$@gmail.com> >> $ ls -l >> total 8748 >> -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 5661471 Oct 1 2007 openmotif-2.3.0.tar.gz >> -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 4888 Jan 18 1999 xvfc.tar.gz >> -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 3281277 Jan 18 1999 xview3.2.tar.gz >> >> They can be retrieved under https://www.skeeve.com/X11/. > > "Forbidden > > You don't have permission to access this resource." These worked for me: https://www.skeeve.com/X11/openmotif-2.3.0.tar.gz https://www.skeeve.com/X11/xvfc.tar.gz https://www.skeeve.com/X11/xview3.2.tar.gz From arnold at skeeve.com Wed Jul 2 21:30:30 2025 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 05:30:30 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] xview and open motif files In-Reply-To: <008401dbeaf1$748542f0$5d8fc8d0$@gmail.com> References: <202506302125.55ULPtCv148436@freefriends.org> <03813740-4884-edd3-32b9-ed40df49fbcd@riddermarkfarm.ca> <008401dbeaf1$748542f0$5d8fc8d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <202507021130.562BUUoV311185@freefriends.org> wrote: > >> $ ls -l > >> total 8748 > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 5661471 Oct 1 2007 openmotif-2.3.0.tar.gz > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 4888 Jan 18 1999 xvfc.tar.gz > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 arnold ftpusers 3281277 Jan 18 1999 xview3.2.tar.gz > >> > >> They can be retrieved under https://www.skeeve.com/X11/. > > > > "Forbidden > > > > You don't have permission to access this resource." > > These worked for me: > https://www.skeeve.com/X11/openmotif-2.3.0.tar.gz > https://www.skeeve.com/X11/xvfc.tar.gz > https://www.skeeve.com/X11/xview3.2.tar.gz > Yeah, apparently I need an index.html file in that directory, but you can just retrieve them directly. "Sorry about that, chief." Arnold From tuhs at tuhs.org Thu Jul 3 05:54:24 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Johan Helsingius via TUHS) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 21:54:24 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/06/2025 16:04, Jonathan Gray wrote: > as ukuug.org now links to casinos... Such a shame :( > EUUG Newsletter Vol 2, No 4 onwards scans at > https://datamuseum.dk/wiki/Bits:Keyword/PERIODICALS/EUUG-NEWSLETTER Thanks! I especially relish the copy of the EUUG Spring 1984 newsletter with the account of the Nijmegen meeting, where I submitted the membership application on behalf of the Finnish UNIX USers Group to join EUUG, and I first learned about the Blit/5620, Honey DanBer UUCP, and /proc, , as well as meeting Eric Allman, Kirk McKusick, Andy Hume, Jim McKie, Jaap Akkerhuis, Brian Redman, David Tilbrook, Andrew Hume, Nigel Martin, Mike Banahan, Teus Hagen and many more. Julf From arnold at skeeve.com Thu Jul 3 06:47:37 2025 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 14:47:37 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202507022047.562KlbC6348331@freefriends.org> Johan Helsingius via TUHS wrote: > and /proc, , as well as meeting Eric Allman, Kirk McKusick, Andy Hume, > Jim McKie, Jaap Akkerhuis, Brian Redman, David Tilbrook, Andrew Hume, So which one of Andrew Hume and Andy Hume is the evil twin? :-) From dave at horsfall.org Thu Jul 3 08:31:38 2025 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 08:31:38 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: <202507022047.562KlbC6348331@freefriends.org> References: <202507022047.562KlbC6348331@freefriends.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 2025, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > Jim McKie, Jaap Akkerhuis, Brian Redman, David Tilbrook, Andrew Hume, > > So which one of Andrew Hume and Andy Hume is the evil twin? :-) I knew Andrew, but never heard him called Andy... -- Dave From andrew at humeweb.com Fri Jul 4 13:19:02 2025 From: andrew at humeweb.com (andrew at humeweb.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 20:19:02 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: <202507022047.562KlbC6348331@freefriends.org> References: <202507022047.562KlbC6348331@freefriends.org> Message-ID: both!! > On Jul 2, 2025, at 1:47 PM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > Johan Helsingius via TUHS wrote: > >> and /proc, , as well as meeting Eric Allman, Kirk McKusick, Andy Hume, >> Jim McKie, Jaap Akkerhuis, Brian Redman, David Tilbrook, Andrew Hume, > > So which one of Andrew Hume and Andy Hume is the evil twin? :-) > From andrew at humeweb.com Fri Jul 4 13:21:22 2025 From: andrew at humeweb.com (andrew at humeweb.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 20:21:22 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX newsletters? In-Reply-To: References: <202507022047.562KlbC6348331@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <81A43C60-9E6C-4812-9FCF-6E4DF1F6137E@humeweb.com> i had an uncle who went by “Andy”, so that may be why my parents called me andrew. i always asked to be called andrew, with only one failure: a 65 yr scottish english teacher in high school. i had enough sense to recognise i could not change him, so i lived with that for a year. > On Jul 2, 2025, at 3:31 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Jul 2025, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > >>> Jim McKie, Jaap Akkerhuis, Brian Redman, David Tilbrook, Andrew Hume, >> >> So which one of Andrew Hume and Andy Hume is the evil twin? :-) > > I knew Andrew, but never heard him called Andy... > > -- Dave From fariborz.t at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 04:06:09 2025 From: fariborz.t at gmail.com (Skip Tavakkolian) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 11:06:09 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Other implementations of Alef? Message-ID: In the 2nd Edition Plan 9, in the Alef Language Reference Manual by Phil Winterbottom, the title of section 7 is "The Plan 9 Implementation". Were there other implementations? From crossd at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 11:01:16 2025 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 21:01:16 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Other implementations of Alef? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 8:42 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > In the 2nd Edition Plan 9, in the Alef Language Reference Manual by > Phil Winterbottom, the title of section 7 is "The Plan 9 > Implementation". Were there other implementations? > According to the Alef User's Guide, there was (at least) an implementation for Irix. https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/papers/alef/ug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robpike at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 11:36:16 2025 From: robpike at gmail.com (Rob Pike) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 11:36:16 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Other implementations of Alef? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not at the time. -rob On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 5:02 AM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > In the 2nd Edition Plan 9, in the Alef Language Reference Manual by > Phil Winterbottom, the title of section 7 is "The Plan 9 > Implementation". Were there other implementations? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 00:40:32 2025 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 10:40:32 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] End of an era: the last ATC (USENIX Annual Technical Conference) Message-ID: Folks, For those of you who were unable to attend, I took this photo yesterday, at the end of the closing remarks for ATC'25 in Boston: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tcaAFQgjGPn5s8Dh7 As most of you know, USENIX has sunsetted the conference, and this was the last time ATC will be run, though of course other USENIX conferences will continue in its place. But I wanted to be in the room as it ended, and I snapped this as everything was winding down, and am now sharing it with our community. For those of you who were able to attend, it was wonderful to see a number of familiar faces, and also meet some folks I've known of and interacted with here and elsewhere, face-to-face. USENIX also turned 50 this year, and the organization made sure to create space for reflection on its history; remembrances were shared by Clem Cole, Bill Cheswick, Doug McIlroy, Andrew Hume, Peter Honeyman, Tom Lyon, and others. On a personal note, I found this very meaningful: I was once told, "never meet your heroes." However, in the Unix community, by and large my heroes are wonderfully pleasant, generous, and kind people in real life, all of whom have either indirectly or directly had a profound influence on the course of my career and life. Thank you for that; it was an honor to share space with you. While ATC is ending, it is also clear that there is a vibrant research community flourishing, building on the legacy of work created by the USENIX community and shared through this conference. Many of you nurtured that community, laying its framework, shepherding and guiding its work, cultivating new generations of researchers while providing the basic tools we all depend on, and thus creating the fertile ground on which it now grows. What greater professional accomplishment could one hope for? Perhaps it is best not to think of this as an end, but an epoch marking the transition from one stage of the community's evolution to the next. - Dan C. From lm at mcvoy.com Fri Jul 11 02:19:43 2025 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 09:19:43 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] End of an era: the last ATC (USENIX Annual Technical Conference) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20250710161943.GM14377@mcvoy.com> Nice note, Dan. On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 10:40:32AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: > On a personal note, I found this very meaningful: I was once told, > "never meet your heroes." However, in the Unix community, by and large > my heroes are wonderfully pleasant, generous, and kind people in real > life, all of whom have either indirectly or directly had a profound > influence on the course of my career and life. Thank you for that; it > was an honor to share space with you. I couldn't agree more. Starting with Dennis, everyone has been willing to share knowledge. I have a memory of Dennis having "handlers" at Usenix so one person wouldn't eat up all of his time. Much thanks to all those shoulders that lifted us up. --lm From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 11 05:47:38 2025 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 15:47:38 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] End of an era: the last ATC (USENIX Annual Technical Conference) In-Reply-To: <20250710161943.GM14377@mcvoy.com> References: <20250710161943.GM14377@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 12:19 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > I couldn't agree more. Starting with Dennis, everyone has been willing > to share knowledge. I have a memory of Dennis having "handlers" at > Usenix so one person wouldn't eat up all of his time. > That was not true, as much as the community might have intervened if we thought somebody was a little out of line.* i.e.*, we might have been protective of him. Dennis was really too nice to have said anything. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauer at technologists.com Fri Jul 11 06:04:54 2025 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer (he/him)) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 15:04:54 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] End of an era: the last ATC (USENIX Annual Technical Conference) In-Reply-To: References: <20250710161943.GM14377@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On 7/10/2025 2:47 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 12:19 PM Larry McVoy > wrote: > > > I couldn't agree more.  Starting with Dennis, everyone has been willing > to share knowledge.  I have a memory of Dennis having "handlers" at > Usenix so one person wouldn't eat up all of his time. > > That was not true, as much as the community might have intervened if we > thought somebody was a little out of line./i.e./, we might have been > protective of him. Dennis was really too nice to have said anything. The one time I spoke to Dennis, I went up to the lectern after he spoke somewhere, probably a USENIX Technical Conference, to shake his hand and thank him. As I recall, neither of us said much, no one else was nearby. -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/mas.to: CharlesHSauer From lm at mcvoy.com Fri Jul 11 06:12:46 2025 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 13:12:46 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] End of an era: the last ATC (USENIX Annual Technical Conference) In-Reply-To: References: <20250710161943.GM14377@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <20250710201246.GN14377@mcvoy.com> On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 03:47:38PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 12:19???PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > I couldn't agree more. Starting with Dennis, everyone has been willing > > to share knowledge. I have a memory of Dennis having "handlers" at > > Usenix so one person wouldn't eat up all of his time. > > > That was not true, as much as the community might have intervened if we > thought somebody was a little out of line.* i.e.*, we might have been > protective of him. Dennis was really too nice to have said anything. Don't know what to say, Clem, we normally agree on everything. But I'm not making it up, I was there, waiting to talk to Dennis, someone else was talking to him and at some point someone intervened and moved the guy on. Maybe it was a one time thing, I dunno? Seemed like it wasn't the handler's first time doing that. Water under the bridge though. -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat From robpike at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 10:41:44 2025 From: robpike at gmail.com (Rob Pike) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 10:41:44 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Other implementations of Alef? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that's the same implementation, just a port. We had SGI machines running Plan 9, and adjacent SGI machines running IRIX. -rob On Sat, Jul 12, 2025 at 9:17 AM Dan Cross wrote: > On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 8:42 PM Skip Tavakkolian > wrote: > >> In the 2nd Edition Plan 9, in the Alef Language Reference Manual by >> Phil Winterbottom, the title of section 7 is "The Plan 9 >> Implementation". Were there other implementations? >> > > According to the Alef User's Guide, there was (at least) an implementation > for Irix. https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/papers/alef/ug > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.branden.robinson at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 04:37:28 2025 From: g.branden.robinson at gmail.com (G. Branden Robinson) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 13:37:28 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] troff, Gremlin terminals, and the grn preprocessor Message-ID: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> Hi folks, I'm trying to clear up a historical matter. In reviewing groff's "LICENSES" file, I find myself stuck on the following paragraph. >grn, written by Barry Roitblat and David >Slattengren , was part of the Berkeley >troff distribution. The files contain no AT&T code >and are in the public domain. Historically, the original package could >be found at . I'm not sure about that reference to "Berkeley troff". I already deleted the modifier "device-independent" from that sentence because I've never seen even a whisper of evidence that the CSRG ever distributed Kernighan's device-independent troff; that was locked up behind AT&T's revenue-seeking aims. But also, I can't find evidence that "grn" was distributed by Berkeley at all. At Warren's "Unix Tree",[1] I see what looks superficially like evidence of support for Gremlin terminals in "libplot", but that's not the same thing. However there is evidence of support for grn, the troff preprocessor, in other unquestionable BSD artifacts, like Eric Allman's "me" package. Can someone clear up my misconceptions or suggest non-misleading alternative wording? Was the grn preprocessor one of these "USENIX tape" things, like nethack and jove? Regards, Branden [1] https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobozo at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 05:14:05 2025 From: nobozo at gmail.com (Jon Forrest) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 12:14:05 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] troff, Gremlin terminals, and the grn preprocessor In-Reply-To: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> References: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> Message-ID: <073fc2ae-2bf3-4dbc-8afd-264b9642930d@gmail.com> On 7/12/25 11:37 AM, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > I'm not sure about that reference to "Berkeley troff". Maybe Eric Allman can comment in detail. But, maybe it was part of the work that Prof. Mike Harrison and his research group in UCB CS did when they cracked the Adobe Postscript Type 1 format. This little-known fact was the first step in making Postscript Type 1 files an open format. Jon From ats at offog.org Sun Jul 13 09:28:30 2025 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 00:28:30 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Toronto's Numerical Turing compiler Message-ID: Hi TUHS, A poster on the Stardot Acorn forum asked whether the Numerical Turing compiler had survived. I figure this is probably the best place to ask. Numerical Turing was a mid-80s variant of the University of Toronto's Turing programme language that provided arbitrary-precision decimal float arithmetic, developed by Tom Hull and others. It's described in this paper: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1057947.1057949 It ran on Toronto's ai VAX under 4.2BSD. The paper mentions the compiler ntc and its man page, the demo program ntdemo.x, and the standard include directory /usr/include/nt. There are a few references to it in the utzoo Usenet archive but it looks like it was distributed upon request. Has anybody seen a surviving copy? Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From jsg at jsg.id.au Sun Jul 13 12:45:30 2025 From: jsg at jsg.id.au (Jonathan Gray) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 12:45:30 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] troff, Gremlin terminals, and the grn preprocessor In-Reply-To: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> References: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 12, 2025 at 01:37:28PM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm trying to clear up a historical matter. > > In reviewing groff's "LICENSES" file, I find myself stuck on the > following paragraph. > > >grn, written by Barry Roitblat and David > >Slattengren , was part of the Berkeley > >troff distribution. The files contain no AT&T code > >and are in the public domain. Historically, the original package could > >be found at . > > I'm not sure about that reference to "Berkeley troff". I already > deleted the modifier "device-independent" from that sentence because > I've never seen even a whisper of evidence that the CSRG ever > distributed Kernighan's device-independent troff; that was locked up > behind AT&T's revenue-seeking aims. from the Berkeley manual: grn - ditroff preprocessor for gremlin files more on the Berkeley ditroff distribution below > > But also, I can't find evidence that "grn" was distributed by Berkeley > at all. At Warren's "Unix Tree",[1] I see what looks superficially like > evidence of support for Gremlin terminals in "libplot", but that's not > the same thing. > > However there is evidence of support for grn, the troff preprocessor, in > other unquestionable BSD artifacts, like Eric Allman's "me" package. > > Can someone clear up my misconceptions or suggest non-misleading > alternative wording? grn(1) can be found in CD 4 of the CSRG archives. Along with various .grn files. from tuhs Documentation/CSRG_CDs/csrg_ls.gz: -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5757 May 9 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/docs/grn.1 -r--r--r-- 1 root root 356 Jul 5 1995 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/.MAP -r--r--r-- 1 root root 468 Dec 27 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/Makefile -r--r--r-- 1 root root 235 Jul 5 1995 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/.MAP -r--r--r-- 1 root root 2037 Oct 8 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.gprint.h -r--r--r-- 1 root root 9899 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.hdb.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 19497 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.hgraph.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1028 Oct 8 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.hpoint.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 40419 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.main.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1228 Nov 11 1985 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/dev.h -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1904 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/gprint.h -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5677 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/hdb.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 10982 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/hgraph.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 895 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/hpoint.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 22630 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/main.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5757 May 9 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/docs/grn.1 -r--r--r-- 1 root root 314 Jul 5 1995 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/.MAP -r--r--r-- 1 root root 468 Dec 27 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/Makefile -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1228 Nov 11 1985 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/dev.h -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1904 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/gprint.h -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5677 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/hdb.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 10982 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/hgraph.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 895 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/hpoint.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 22630 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/main.c -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5757 Oct 10 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/man/man1/grn.1 The SCCS logs start in 1983, authored by slatteng. The troff preprocessor is also mentioned in Mark Opperman, Jim Thompson, Yih-Farn Chen A Gremlin Tutorial for the SUN Workstation UCB/CSD 322 https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1987/CSD-87-322.pdf "1.1 GREMLIN History GREMLIN's legacy encompasses more than five years and a half-dozen Berkeley graduate students. It all started in 1981 when Barry Roitblat built the first version of GREMLIN for his Master's project. That version ran only on AED color displays, and its output could be printed only on Versatec printers. In order to include figures in typeset documents, they had to be cut-and-pasted. In 1983, Dave Slattengren (another graduate student at UCB) acquired from AT&T the sources to Brian Kernighan's new DITROFF program. In addition to making the program work under 4.2 BSD and building drivers for several printers, he wrote GRN, which reads files in GREMLIN format and generates DITROFF commands to print the pictures in-inline in documents. ... 1.2 Distribution of GREMLIN GREMLIN is distributed free of charge by the University of California, Berkeley, along with a modified version of the DITROFF typesetting system which allows GREMLIN pictures to be printed in-line in documents. To find out more about the GREMLIN/DITROFF distribution, including the AT&T licenses required to receive it, write to:" From g.branden.robinson at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 13:01:47 2025 From: g.branden.robinson at gmail.com (G. Branden Robinson) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 22:01:47 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] troff, Gremlin terminals, and the grn preprocessor In-Reply-To: References: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> Message-ID: <20250713030147.nngb2u75pnrz55hi@illithid> Hi Jonathan, At 2025-07-13T12:45:30+1000, Jonathan Gray wrote: > > I'm not sure about that reference to "Berkeley troff". I already > > deleted the modifier "device-independent" from that sentence because > > I've never seen even a whisper of evidence that the CSRG ever > > distributed Kernighan's device-independent troff; that was locked up > > behind AT&T's revenue-seeking aims. > > from the Berkeley manual: ...which one? Is the one you're referencing archived at minnie? Or do you mean the man page listed below as "grn.1"? > grn - ditroff preprocessor for gremlin files > > more on the Berkeley ditroff distribution below Indeed! I knew about vtroff but not about a Berkeley fork of Kernighan troff. This is significant news to me, and adds a whole new branch onto the troff family tree in my head. > grn(1) can be found in CD 4 of the CSRG archives. > Along with various .grn files. > > from tuhs Documentation/CSRG_CDs/csrg_ls.gz: > > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5757 May 9 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/docs/grn.1 > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 356 Jul 5 1995 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/.MAP > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 468 Dec 27 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/Makefile > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 235 Jul 5 1995 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/.MAP > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 2037 Oct 8 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.gprint.h > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 9899 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.hdb.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 19497 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.hgraph.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1028 Oct 8 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.hpoint.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 40419 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/SCCS/s.main.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1228 Nov 11 1985 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/dev.h > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1904 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/gprint.h > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5677 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/hdb.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 10982 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/hgraph.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 895 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/hpoint.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 22630 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.okeeffe/grn/main.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5757 May 9 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/docs/grn.1 > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 314 Jul 5 1995 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/.MAP > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 468 Dec 27 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/Makefile > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1228 Nov 11 1985 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/dev.h > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 1904 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/gprint.h > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5677 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/hdb.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 10982 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/hgraph.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 895 Dec 7 1984 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/hpoint.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 22630 Apr 14 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/ditroff/ditroff.old.van/grn/main.c > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 5757 Oct 10 1986 CSRG/disk4/local/man/man1/grn.1 I didn't think to look there. > The SCCS logs start in 1983, authored by slatteng. > > The troff preprocessor is also mentioned in > > Mark Opperman, Jim Thompson, Yih-Farn Chen > A Gremlin Tutorial for the SUN Workstation > UCB/CSD 322 > https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1987/CSD-87-322.pdf > > "1.1 GREMLIN History > GREMLIN's legacy encompasses more than five years and a half-dozen > Berkeley graduate students. It all started in 1981 when Barry Roitblat > built the first version of GREMLIN for his Master's project. That > version ran only on AED color displays, and its output could be printed > only on Versatec printers. In order to include figures in typeset > documents, they had to be cut-and-pasted. In 1983, Dave Slattengren > (another graduate student at UCB) acquired from AT&T the sources to > Brian Kernighan's new DITROFF program. In addition to making the > program work under 4.2 BSD and building drivers for several printers, > he wrote GRN, which reads files in GREMLIN format and generates > DITROFF commands to print the pictures in-inline in documents. > ... > 1.2 Distribution of GREMLIN > GREMLIN is distributed free of charge by the University of California, > Berkeley, along with a modified version of the DITROFF typesetting > system which allows GREMLIN pictures to be printed in-line in documents. > To find out more about the GREMLIN/DITROFF distribution, including the > AT&T licenses required to receive it, write to:" This sheds a lot of light. Thanks! Regards, Branden -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jsg at jsg.id.au Sun Jul 13 14:55:56 2025 From: jsg at jsg.id.au (Jonathan Gray) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 14:55:56 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] troff, Gremlin terminals, and the grn preprocessor In-Reply-To: <20250713030147.nngb2u75pnrz55hi@illithid> References: <20250712183728.pnytio3rwl3hk7zg@illithid> <20250713030147.nngb2u75pnrz55hi@illithid> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 12, 2025 at 10:01:47PM -0500, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > Hi Jonathan, > > At 2025-07-13T12:45:30+1000, Jonathan Gray wrote: > > > I'm not sure about that reference to "Berkeley troff". I already > > > deleted the modifier "device-independent" from that sentence because > > > I've never seen even a whisper of evidence that the CSRG ever > > > distributed Kernighan's device-independent troff; that was locked up > > > behind AT&T's revenue-seeking aims. > > > > from the Berkeley manual: > > ...which one? Is the one you're referencing archived at minnie? > > Or do you mean the man page listed below as "grn.1"? CD4 local/man/man1/grn.1 seems to be the same text as http://man.bsd.lv/4.4BSD-Lite2/grn.1 (it is not part of 4.4BSD-Lite2) > > > grn - ditroff preprocessor for gremlin files > > > > more on the Berkeley ditroff distribution below > > Indeed! I knew about vtroff but not about a Berkeley fork of Kernighan > troff. This is significant news to me, and adds a whole new branch onto > the troff family tree in my head. James Clark referred to it as BSD ditroff and goes on to comment on how groff didn't use some of the BSD extensions in a Sep 30, 1991 post to comp.text: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.text/c/OBd9K9hEPSE/m/adTHd_3O434J A Dec 12, 1984 post to net.text called it ditroff gremlin: https://groups.google.com/g/net.text/c/nVeNpNAHxP0/m/Ea2bLUJEnjkJ John Ousterhout, the UCB contact mentioned, led the research group that did Sprite. grn(1) was also included in Sprite.